With the way this game goes, we badly need the ability to "respec" our players. The game changes, why cant we change?
It would be a simple addition, not to mention GLB could even make money off it, but thats not my main point.
Most MMORPG's have the ability to respec the abilities of their characters for some kind of cost. In GLB it would be FP i guess. You could even set a limit to how many times a season or how many times every couple of seasons you could do this.
Things change too much in this game. And when your a high level player that doesnt level very often due to the way XP is setup, the only way to even adjust your build is thru changing your gear.
But what about players who have been around since Season 1? A ton of stuff has changed and i know plenty of guys that would love to adjust their builds.
This wouldnt even take much on the part of Bort and Admin.
But since a total reroll or respec doesnt seem to be a plausible idea due to training points, then possibly an allowance of a one time adjustment for a certain FP cost. Or even a one time adjustment of the SA's for a FP cost.
This would make alot of people happy and stay with the game, where they might otherwise quit due to being frustrated at the fact their stuck with the build they have when its become inefficient and they have no ability to change it outside of equipments changes or boosting, which does not allow a person to change anything of past consequence. And even then at higher level when SP's being spent are 3 or 4 to 1, it makes it even harder to adjust to the changes in the game.
Has this at least been explored. Has Admin reasoned why something like this isnt already in the game. Could we get all of those who are interested in this idea to please show their support or ideas to make this idea fully functional.
I mean, this game is a BETA test afterall, even though some people dont do any testing at all and just play the game. If plenty of other MMOs allow to respec to allow people to flow with the game, in these production games, why wouldnt a BETA game allow it.
To those that cant read anything and feel the need to post based on the thread title alone, please save everyone the hassle and just dont post at all.
And some quick points that ill try and fill our for those too lazy to read thru.
- This isnt about people who have bad builds. Alot of the people in favor of it dont even have bad builds but would rather try something different or just be able to TEST something different.
- Retirement isnt an option for people at the higher levels. Someone shouldnt have to retire a player who they have 9 months of time and money invested into, just to help further this game. If Bort really valued his customers and wanted this game to be all it can be, this would be allowed.
- Noone is asking for unlimited respecs with no rules attached. We're even past the point of asking for total complete respecs. Partial respecs, SA respecs, etc. Various different forms have been mentioned. Maybe a 1 time ever thing, so you can only do it once, plus some of the restrictions mentioned below.
- There would be plenty of restrictions or penalties associated with this. An initial cost such as what it cost to build the player, followed by a highly increasing amount each time someone did it. We could penalize SPs to respec. Like if you wanted to respec 10 SPs, you would lose 1 or 2. Anyways, some kind of things like these would have to accompany a respec. It wouldnt be Free or unlimited.
- This game is a Beta and needs to allow people to start treating it as such. If we are not supposed to be testing it, then take off the Beta tag and say this game is complete. If other popular "production" MMOs have respecs, one would think a Beta MMO would have such an option.
Originally posted by Bort
I actually don't think an offseason limited respec is a terrible idea. It kinda makes sense as long as it's limited to a small percentage of skill points. The problem lies entirely in logistics and math.
The fact that you can train, gain auto level up points, and assign SP's at various points, in any order, to your players makes the math for doing any sort of re-spec EXTREMELY difficult if not completely impossible. We don't keep track of every single modification to the player, so we have no way of stepping back through the player's history.
Also, because of the math of the various "soft caps," it opens up opportunities for exploits by creatively training and moving points around. You cannot just say "remove 10 points from my 30 strength and add it to my 80 speed" because 30 strength is worth far less than 80 speed.
If somebody could come up with an actual plan where the math works, even if doing a respec actually lost you SP, it would be much more likely to be considered. There cannot be any way to gain SP through a respec process, or it becomes possible to create a super player through gaming the math.
Originally posted by Bort
Wow, lots of intense debate in here over the last couple days.
There will never be a full-respec option. Partial maybe, but not full, so don't bother going down that route.
SA's certainly would be easiest angle to approach the idea from, since the math for attributes is a nightmare to figure out. A friend of mine made a suggestion while I was eating dinner with him a while ago, though, which sounded sorta interesting. I haven't done the math for exploitability, but the idea is: give the ability to de-train one attribute while training something else up. No SP assignments; just reverse training in exchange for training another skill. It could cost training points, and would allow you to respec your player naturally over time.
Originally posted by Bort
I was talking about attributes with the de-training, not SA's. SA's would have to be done with skill point assignments because they are whole numbers.
Originally posted by Bort
Yeah, using the training curve. Seems like a zero-sum sort of thing - I don't think you can really game the math there, but I might be missing something.
Practicality Reasons:
- Only lets you shift your points around within special abilities, so no worries about screwing up math with attributes.
- The sim is constantly changing. This allows for some level of adjustment to those changes.
- Only once per season. So, its not going to be abused by changing every game.
- No one knows how SAs work and some SAs never became useful (Smooth Operator and Hands).
- Return Spec doesn't work at all. (Credit Arles with mentioning this in another thread).
- Some people spend in General SAs then move positions or learn a couple weeks later that in the 3-4 you only have one General and then kick themselves. Harsh when you learn that 3-4 bit in the middle of the season where the 3-4 came out instead of right away which would have prevented that mishap.
Realism Reasons:
- We can shift around equipment to randomly gain Speed/Agility/Strength/Vision/Tackling and anything else. The shoes actually do make you good, Nike wishes they could have done that.
- Picture the real life situation. Adrian Peterson walks into coach's office and he says "Stop Juking around, lower your shoulder and Power Thru people, we'll work on it in practice" whats the result? Juke goes down, Power Thru goes up. Players can change their skill sets in real life.
Economic Reasons:
- Charge Flex Points. Maybe the cost of player creation like boosts. Bort has to like the idea of making more cash while making us happier.
Experimental Reasons:
- Would certain builds work at Pro Level or just later levels when you have higher attributes that allow them to activate more? No one really knows because experimenting at high levels isn't done due to the fact that it could destroy a good build. You follow the cookie cutter cause that's the safe route. With this, a Level 40 could dedicate a season to something crazy, its risky but its not suicidal if it fails. Who knows what builds this could lead to, and if it would create a variety of successes. Not to mention, this is a Beta, people experimenting discovers problems which is the point of a Beta.
Proposed Controls:
Bort can consider these as ways to make this more balanced and appealing. These have been suggested by people in the thread:
- Change ONLY in the off season. Or before Day 0, basically. So Bort can release changes before we have to make switches.
- Limit SP change to something like 10 or so SPs moved around in any given off season to promote gradual changes. (With the limiting option the paying Flex thing may become iffy, but that's obviously debatable, just presenting options here).
- Limit SP change by only allowing up to +/- a certain amount in each SA value. Like +/- 3 maximum in any SA. (Same question about Flex cost as above though.)
Sufficient?
Further, we have this: http://goallineblitz.com/game/forum_thread.pl?thread_id=1870546&page=16 [ Post by Terrel Owens on the page. ]
Originally posted by
5) Its a bone to throw. With everyone constantly yelling about the nerfs this ability would quiet them.
6) It also gives Bort more freedom. Say he wants to change the SAs, well then he can because people will just auto-respec. Its one of the only ways to even think about getting rid of Smooth Operator and Hands at the moment.
Six Seasons of Boosting a RB. You spend $54 and Eight Months of time.
Season 7 comes around. You would like to re-spec from Elusive to Power. You shift your Equips around and decide to go power runner. But.. you have no Power Thru. 8 Juke really doesn't help much when power running. Damn, so you know what you have to do. Retire. Get 3780 of your 5,400 spent flex points back, giving up 1320, or about $13 and start the long arduous climb back to Level 40+.
Or, you could pay 100 (maybe 200-300) Flex. And for this season you'd get one SA respec. Drop those 8 Juke points into 8 Power Thru points. Maybe buy a new custom (+900 Flex for GLB) and ba-bam your player lives on. Only once per season though, so don't try to switch back until Season 8.
Liken it to WoW - You have a Paladin and you go 100% Protect Tree. Then your Guild says they need a new Retribution Paladin. Do you say "Ok! I'll get right on it!" and create a new Level 1? No, you go to the trainer and you pay a massive amount of in-game money to change your skill tree.
How anyone could be against this is beyond me.
1) Its a GLB revenue source.
2) It'll save characters and maybe agents from retirement/quitting.
3) It gives Bort something to say you can do to adapt to the changes, meaning reasonable (even if loud and annoying) agents will understand and not outright quit. And those are are unreasonable will start to have some reason to stay.
It would be a simple addition, not to mention GLB could even make money off it, but thats not my main point.
Most MMORPG's have the ability to respec the abilities of their characters for some kind of cost. In GLB it would be FP i guess. You could even set a limit to how many times a season or how many times every couple of seasons you could do this.
Things change too much in this game. And when your a high level player that doesnt level very often due to the way XP is setup, the only way to even adjust your build is thru changing your gear.
But what about players who have been around since Season 1? A ton of stuff has changed and i know plenty of guys that would love to adjust their builds.
This wouldnt even take much on the part of Bort and Admin.
But since a total reroll or respec doesnt seem to be a plausible idea due to training points, then possibly an allowance of a one time adjustment for a certain FP cost. Or even a one time adjustment of the SA's for a FP cost.
This would make alot of people happy and stay with the game, where they might otherwise quit due to being frustrated at the fact their stuck with the build they have when its become inefficient and they have no ability to change it outside of equipments changes or boosting, which does not allow a person to change anything of past consequence. And even then at higher level when SP's being spent are 3 or 4 to 1, it makes it even harder to adjust to the changes in the game.
Has this at least been explored. Has Admin reasoned why something like this isnt already in the game. Could we get all of those who are interested in this idea to please show their support or ideas to make this idea fully functional.
I mean, this game is a BETA test afterall, even though some people dont do any testing at all and just play the game. If plenty of other MMOs allow to respec to allow people to flow with the game, in these production games, why wouldnt a BETA game allow it.
To those that cant read anything and feel the need to post based on the thread title alone, please save everyone the hassle and just dont post at all.
And some quick points that ill try and fill our for those too lazy to read thru.
- This isnt about people who have bad builds. Alot of the people in favor of it dont even have bad builds but would rather try something different or just be able to TEST something different.
- Retirement isnt an option for people at the higher levels. Someone shouldnt have to retire a player who they have 9 months of time and money invested into, just to help further this game. If Bort really valued his customers and wanted this game to be all it can be, this would be allowed.
- Noone is asking for unlimited respecs with no rules attached. We're even past the point of asking for total complete respecs. Partial respecs, SA respecs, etc. Various different forms have been mentioned. Maybe a 1 time ever thing, so you can only do it once, plus some of the restrictions mentioned below.
- There would be plenty of restrictions or penalties associated with this. An initial cost such as what it cost to build the player, followed by a highly increasing amount each time someone did it. We could penalize SPs to respec. Like if you wanted to respec 10 SPs, you would lose 1 or 2. Anyways, some kind of things like these would have to accompany a respec. It wouldnt be Free or unlimited.
- This game is a Beta and needs to allow people to start treating it as such. If we are not supposed to be testing it, then take off the Beta tag and say this game is complete. If other popular "production" MMOs have respecs, one would think a Beta MMO would have such an option.
Originally posted by Bort
I actually don't think an offseason limited respec is a terrible idea. It kinda makes sense as long as it's limited to a small percentage of skill points. The problem lies entirely in logistics and math.
The fact that you can train, gain auto level up points, and assign SP's at various points, in any order, to your players makes the math for doing any sort of re-spec EXTREMELY difficult if not completely impossible. We don't keep track of every single modification to the player, so we have no way of stepping back through the player's history.
Also, because of the math of the various "soft caps," it opens up opportunities for exploits by creatively training and moving points around. You cannot just say "remove 10 points from my 30 strength and add it to my 80 speed" because 30 strength is worth far less than 80 speed.
If somebody could come up with an actual plan where the math works, even if doing a respec actually lost you SP, it would be much more likely to be considered. There cannot be any way to gain SP through a respec process, or it becomes possible to create a super player through gaming the math.
Originally posted by Bort
Wow, lots of intense debate in here over the last couple days.
There will never be a full-respec option. Partial maybe, but not full, so don't bother going down that route.
SA's certainly would be easiest angle to approach the idea from, since the math for attributes is a nightmare to figure out. A friend of mine made a suggestion while I was eating dinner with him a while ago, though, which sounded sorta interesting. I haven't done the math for exploitability, but the idea is: give the ability to de-train one attribute while training something else up. No SP assignments; just reverse training in exchange for training another skill. It could cost training points, and would allow you to respec your player naturally over time.
Originally posted by Bort
I was talking about attributes with the de-training, not SA's. SA's would have to be done with skill point assignments because they are whole numbers.
Originally posted by Bort
Yeah, using the training curve. Seems like a zero-sum sort of thing - I don't think you can really game the math there, but I might be missing something.
Practicality Reasons:
- Only lets you shift your points around within special abilities, so no worries about screwing up math with attributes.
- The sim is constantly changing. This allows for some level of adjustment to those changes.
- Only once per season. So, its not going to be abused by changing every game.
- No one knows how SAs work and some SAs never became useful (Smooth Operator and Hands).
- Return Spec doesn't work at all. (Credit Arles with mentioning this in another thread).
- Some people spend in General SAs then move positions or learn a couple weeks later that in the 3-4 you only have one General and then kick themselves. Harsh when you learn that 3-4 bit in the middle of the season where the 3-4 came out instead of right away which would have prevented that mishap.
Realism Reasons:
- We can shift around equipment to randomly gain Speed/Agility/Strength/Vision/Tackling and anything else. The shoes actually do make you good, Nike wishes they could have done that.
- Picture the real life situation. Adrian Peterson walks into coach's office and he says "Stop Juking around, lower your shoulder and Power Thru people, we'll work on it in practice" whats the result? Juke goes down, Power Thru goes up. Players can change their skill sets in real life.
Economic Reasons:
- Charge Flex Points. Maybe the cost of player creation like boosts. Bort has to like the idea of making more cash while making us happier.
Experimental Reasons:
- Would certain builds work at Pro Level or just later levels when you have higher attributes that allow them to activate more? No one really knows because experimenting at high levels isn't done due to the fact that it could destroy a good build. You follow the cookie cutter cause that's the safe route. With this, a Level 40 could dedicate a season to something crazy, its risky but its not suicidal if it fails. Who knows what builds this could lead to, and if it would create a variety of successes. Not to mention, this is a Beta, people experimenting discovers problems which is the point of a Beta.
Proposed Controls:
Bort can consider these as ways to make this more balanced and appealing. These have been suggested by people in the thread:
- Change ONLY in the off season. Or before Day 0, basically. So Bort can release changes before we have to make switches.
- Limit SP change to something like 10 or so SPs moved around in any given off season to promote gradual changes. (With the limiting option the paying Flex thing may become iffy, but that's obviously debatable, just presenting options here).
- Limit SP change by only allowing up to +/- a certain amount in each SA value. Like +/- 3 maximum in any SA. (Same question about Flex cost as above though.)
Sufficient?
Further, we have this: http://goallineblitz.com/game/forum_thread.pl?thread_id=1870546&page=16 [ Post by Terrel Owens on the page. ]
Originally posted by
5) Its a bone to throw. With everyone constantly yelling about the nerfs this ability would quiet them.
6) It also gives Bort more freedom. Say he wants to change the SAs, well then he can because people will just auto-respec. Its one of the only ways to even think about getting rid of Smooth Operator and Hands at the moment.
Six Seasons of Boosting a RB. You spend $54 and Eight Months of time.
Season 7 comes around. You would like to re-spec from Elusive to Power. You shift your Equips around and decide to go power runner. But.. you have no Power Thru. 8 Juke really doesn't help much when power running. Damn, so you know what you have to do. Retire. Get 3780 of your 5,400 spent flex points back, giving up 1320, or about $13 and start the long arduous climb back to Level 40+.
Or, you could pay 100 (maybe 200-300) Flex. And for this season you'd get one SA respec. Drop those 8 Juke points into 8 Power Thru points. Maybe buy a new custom (+900 Flex for GLB) and ba-bam your player lives on. Only once per season though, so don't try to switch back until Season 8.
Liken it to WoW - You have a Paladin and you go 100% Protect Tree. Then your Guild says they need a new Retribution Paladin. Do you say "Ok! I'll get right on it!" and create a new Level 1? No, you go to the trainer and you pay a massive amount of in-game money to change your skill tree.
How anyone could be against this is beyond me.
1) Its a GLB revenue source.
2) It'll save characters and maybe agents from retirement/quitting.
3) It gives Bort something to say you can do to adapt to the changes, meaning reasonable (even if loud and annoying) agents will understand and not outright quit. And those are are unreasonable will start to have some reason to stay.
Last edited Jan 27, 2009 15:58:19
