Warrior General Games

Issue
FW logic is to run back to the 35 and then run forward. BW logic is to start from the 20, wait for the ball to be kicked, then run forward. Blockers and coverage guys won't move sideways or react to the ball until the ball is caught. This works ok in low-level leagues with very slow dots but it is ridiculous in WL. It basically results in a big wall at around the 35 yard line and the KR is left to beat usually 2 defenders before he even gets to one of his blockers. There are some other wacky scenarios that result as well. What should happen is that the blockers should be nearer to the return man, and the coverage guys should be smarter about handling kicks that aren't fielded right away.

History
I posted this in October in Suggestions: http://goallineblitz.com/game/forum_thread.pl?thread_id=3390148
I was asked to re-post it in bugs: http://goallineblitz.com/game/forum_thread.pl?thread_id=3390148&page=3#30360165
Brought it up in response to a thread about bugs that didn't receive enough attention: http://goallineblitz.com/game/forum_thread.pl?thread_id=3811805&page=3#33886125
Was told that it won't be looked at because it's from before this season: http://goallineblitz.com/game/forum_thread.pl?thread_id=3811805&page=3#33887067
Re-posted in Bugs with new examples, but was asked to move to Suggestions: http://goallineblitz.com/game/forum_thread.pl?thread_id=3819664

Examples
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1079644&pbp_id=13510838
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1079643&pbp_id=12638984
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1079603&pbp_id=13522791
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1079700&pbp_id=13523168
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1079617&pbp_id=12638917
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1079630&pbp_id=12638927
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1079695&pbp_id=12650781
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1079631&pbp_id=13510806
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1079602&pbp_id=12638924
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1079655&pbp_id=13521453
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1079690&pbp_id=13510916
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1079689&pbp_id=12650274
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1079696&pbp_id=13521755
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1079631&pbp_id=13510806
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1079764&pbp_id=13510788
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1079737&pbp_id=12651853
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1079751&pbp_id=13523188
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1079809&pbp_id=12638951
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1079763&pbp_id=12652394
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1079723&pbp_id=13510749
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1079785&pbp_id=12638977
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1079810&pbp_id=13521046
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1079815&pbp_id=12638998
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1079722&pbp_id=12649473
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1079722&pbp_id=12649473
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1079816&pbp_id=13510786
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1079774&pbp_id=12650557
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1079738&pbp_id=13521643
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1079775&pbp_id=13510931
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1079820&pbp_id=13510835
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1079750&pbp_id=12638949

Suggestion
Special teams needs an overhaul, really. One suggestion by beenlurken that I like is to have the back wedge start running forward when the ball is caught, instead of when it is kicked. Another possibility is to do something to account for variable speed blockers, such as have them run backward for awhile, then run forward. Front wedge does this right now but I would go one step further and have them run back until the ball is caught, OR until they get within 5 yards of the KR. Something like that. Whereas the front wedge currently runs back to exactly the 35 yard line, which is not far enough for fast blockers.

Related issues
-The KOS team OU2 and OU5 are unblocked ~99% of the time. This is a direct result of the rigid waypoints that the return team has. The only players that have a chance to block these guys are BW1 and BW3. But those guys will run straight ahead until the ball is caught. By then, if the kickoff is far and the coverage team is fast, they have no chance to get over there. (See any of the replays above for examples.) Note that in addition to the rigit rules for moving backward and forward at the start of the play, the back wedge also does not move sideways until the ball is caught. All of this stuff should be revisited.
-Fast blockers run right past fast coverage guys. It seems that KRS guys won't try to block the KOS guys until the ball is caught. Unfortunately the mods deleted my thread that had the examples of this. Anyway from looking at the first 16 of the above 32 links, I found about a dozen examples.
-Kickoff coverage guys just stop once they reach a certain point, if the ball is not caught yet. Maybe the most retarded issue of the whole kickoff coding, although not the most important. If this is working as intended, the intention needs to change, ldo: http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1054173&pbp_id=14019122
-Kickoff coverage guys run past the ball if a shorter kick is not fielded quickly. More goofiness. More specifically, the problem is that they won't adjust to the ball until it's caught. Much like the back wedge not moving sideways until the ball is caught. http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1077265&pbp_id=14251697

I won't give up on you, Special Teams!

+1 ST's Kicks are jokes for the most part, like to see OU5/2 get blocked sometimes.

special teams ride the short bus

While they are fixing the above....they should also dial back kickoff length...in the pro's it seems 50%+ of the kicks end up flying out of the back of the end zone.

I am all for making kickoff returns/coverage relevant in this game.

OP thanks for taking the time to point out some of the deficiencies!

+1 to OP

Also change the Kickoff position based upon League level, this will help solve the supposed >50% Touchback issue people go on about at the highest levels. Something along these lines would pretty much do it...

1-22 leagues kick off from the 40.
24-34 leagues kick off from the 35.
36-46 leagues kick off from the 30.
A+ leagues kick off from the 25.

agree completely

Do it.

I suggested similar things in my GLB youth, but had since accepted special teams would always be retarded. Kickoffs are the single weakest link in the sim, followed closely by punts, then FGA's which might as well be a replay of the ball only, 'cause player movement means nothing.

At least put some effort into making special teams relevant.

+1

At the same time, they need to fix the coverage team's inability to run past the 35 yard line until the ball is caught and inability to adjust their path of approach until they hit the 35 yard line. Everyone runs in a straight line to the 35 then suddenly they all make 90 degree turns and run in. I know you want your ST to maintain their lanes, but they should be smart enough to start angling in a bit as they approach, not just all at once.

http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1024049&pbp_id=13590704

Thanks to the OP for putting considerable effort into trying to help better the game.

Will we see meaningful change?....who knows.

+1

Time to look at ST again.

Originally posted by TrevJo


Related issues
-The KOS team OU2 and OU5 are unblocked ~99% of the time. This is a direct result of the rigid waypoints that the return team has. The only players that have a chance to block these guys are BW1 and BW3. But those guys will run straight ahead until the ball is caught. By then, if the kickoff is far and the coverage team is fast, they have no chance to get over there. (See any of the replays above for examples.) Note that in addition to the rigit rules for moving backward and forward at the start of the play, the back wedge also does not move sideways until the ball is caught. All of this stuff should be revisited.
-Fast blockers run right past fast coverage guys. It seems that KRS guys won't try to block the KOS guys until the ball is caught. Unfortunately the mods deleted my thread that had the examples of this. Anyway from looking at the first 16 of the above 32 links, I found about a dozen examples.

agreed that the rigid rules are not working. these were put in so that players stay in their lanes, but has resulted in some easy exploits. back wedge should definitely not move at all until the ball is caught unless its a long kick, then allow them to move backwards so that they are 10-15 yards in front of the KR when the ball is caught. the OU1-4 should do a better job of blocking in a zone and not against a specific slot on the KOS.

Originally posted by TrevJo
-Kickoff coverage guys just stop once they reach a certain point, if the ball is not caught yet. Maybe the most retarded issue of the whole kickoff coding, although not the most important. If this is working as intended, the intention needs to change, ldo: http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1054173&pbp_id=14019122

i've always hated this. players should never just stop

Originally posted by TrevJo
-Kickoff coverage guys run past the ball if a shorter kick is not fielded quickly. More goofiness. More specifically, the problem is that they won't adjust to the ball until it's caught. Much like the back wedge not moving sideways until the ball is caught. http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1077265&pbp_id=14251697

once the ball hits the ground, it should be treated as a fumble. on the flip side of this tho, even a non kicker or level 1 kicker should be able to kick it 40+ yards. kick return teams should adjust their positioning to reflect the abilities of the kicker. why should a KR stand on his GL for a kicker that only kicks it 40 yards?

additionally, i'd like to see sideways movement returned to the kick return. now its just run up the middle until tackled. KRs react far too late to defenders. we went from players reacting to defenders 50 yards away, to them not reacting at all until they get to about the 40. http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1052882&pbp_id=13930955 by the time the KR is to the 25, he should be able to see the 3 unblocked defenders covering the right and middle of the field. a quick glance left shows 1 defender engaged with 1 blocker. it shouldnt be rocket science for the KR to cut left at that point to use his only blocker. instead he continues right up the middle into the swarm of tacklers. another example, http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1052882&pbp_id=13932113

Seemed to be a lot of missed blocks on those plays you linked. Are you saying the logic is causing them?

Originally posted by Dr. E
Seemed to be a lot of missed blocks on those plays you linked. Are you saying the logic is causing them?

i think the point isnt the outcome of the plays, but the mechanics involved.

I couldnt agree more with fixing kickoff pathing/logic....

Unfortunately, the overwhelming majority of the issues outlined here pertain to fixing the pathing/logic of the return team/blocking. The problem with this is that kick returns are already overpowered. As it is now, kick coverage players can barely reach speedy returners before they cross the 20 yardline (even when returning from 9 yards deep in the end zone) even when they fly in untouched. If we fix the FW/BW as is proposed (and I agree it should be fixed) it will be much easier to account for all unblocked players and few, if any, coverage tacklers will reach the returner untouched. This will lead to huge return yard averages and will really over-power kick returns that already have the advantage.

That said, something will need to be done to allow coverage attackers to get downfield to have an opportunity to make the play, especially on kicks that are returned from the EZ (fast untouched tacklers barely reach fast returners who return it from deep in the EZ).

Potential solutions would be...
Longer Kick Hangtime: This would allow attackers to get a little further downfield before they have to start fighting through blocks.
Changing Cover/Return Blocking Dynamic: If we are going to allow return teams to account for all coverage attackers then it needs to be easier for the attackers to break blocks (against comparable competition of course). Return blockers shouldnt be able stop attackers in their tracks who are running at full speed and then hold the block for an extended amount of time. Kick return blocking should be more about slowing coverage tacklers down and making them take different angles to the returner... not engage in a full scale extended block like you see on the OL/DL (that would be holding/blocking in the back in real football). In other words, return blockers should act more like quicksand to slow coverage attackers instead of walls that impede them.
Encourage Returners To Think Outside Of Speed: Vision, Strength, Confidence, Stamina and maybe jumping should all be a little more important than they currently are for returners. Those that want to neglect these for lightening fast returners should see more less tackle avoidance and more morale sprials/fumble problems.