This is just a previously ongoing discussion moved into it's own thread (instead of buried in "Current Sim Issues".
Originally posted by tester
Stamina - Needs more importance. Perhaps a minimum loss per play even if the player doesn't do much. To help avoid TE's with 200+ pancakes a season playing with less than 40 Stamina. Also, Make it so the SA's/VA's that help regen stamina have more importance again.
Confidence - Should be a part of every roll. I believe it already is, but it should be a larger part of every roll than it is presently. Players in the WL with 40 confidence make me QQ because they are still effective and often more so because those SP's were able to be put somewhere else making the build more effective and 'distorted'.
Do a pass through of ALL the major rolls that can be made in game. Lets try to make it so that more attributes are involved and that the oppositional roll includes an equal number of attributes. Also, consider something where when the rolls are determined too great a disparity in the attributes has a deleterious effect to the overall success chances of the roll. So that distorted builds with wildly high numbers will not automatically be more successful in most every case.
Blocking - Make blocking more important in the blocking matchups. Strength right now is too determinative of success on blocking rolls. WR's with 60+ Strength (or more with the new Power WR archetypes) shouldn't be able to block as effectively as they can presently. Also, make Blocking more important to determining a pancake. EG, Str > Blocking = Target pushed back briefly but because its 'poor technique' there is little balance loss to the blockee. Blocking > Stre = Block Held and if there was enough of a result for a pushback, greater chance of pancake/loss of balance because the technique is good.
Originally posted by tester
Speaking in terms of vision for RBs, because it's really only used nowadays for fake ability. Not sure if this exists or is just hidden, but there should be some sort of vision check to 'break' their current path on run plays. RBs are still too robotic in their runs.
I'll use this play as an example: http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1027201&pbp_id=16127026
While that play is supposed to head outside, it would be nice if he could cut it inside (and regardless of power/elusive setting). A hefty vision check (something that ~68 vision on power running would still win) would be favorable. Obviously make it easier for an elusive runner to make the move, but a guy all the way towards power should be be 'exempt' from seeing a hole of that size.
Originally posted by Bort
Outside plays are most prone to that effect, since many use a scripted start.
I don't recall if that one got updated to use waypoints and hotspots, or uses a full scripted start. Those that use hotspots to direct the path have a lot more freedom.
As for energy and morale, I think it's time we make them mean more. I'll probably crank them up for some testing here in a bit.
Originally posted by tester
QB:
- Stamina needs to have an effect on throwing, too, if it doesn't already. The more you throw, the more your arm is going to feel it. Plus, scrambling around, taking sacks, etc. should take a bit out of you as well. Running all over the field (receivers, DBs, etc) needs to take a lot out of you, so you either need to rotate every play, or invest in some stamina. The more speed you have, the more energy you drain. Might help cut back on those 150 speed receivers.
- Agility needs some sort of use in a typical pocket passer, like setting your feet quickly for a quicker throw, avoiding pressure easier, etc.
- Confidence needs to be a bigger factor in general, or at least in game morale needs to be adjusted.
- Vision should help decide WHICH SA you want to use, if one at all
Originally posted by Bort
Vision is used in some SA's already, as to allowing them to work or not via a check. Would be interesting to apply a vision check to all skills...
Originally posted by tester
I'd like to see energy AND morale have more of an impact. If morale meant more than morale reducing SA's would mean a lot more. Rather than tweak the SA's, bring the sim to the SA's. Confidence would be real important overnight.
Originally posted by catch22
He just uploaded double effect on morale/energy. Testing right now (see requested test thread)
Originally posted by PP
Just leave stamina and confidence have the same impact that they do right now, but make it a bit more harsh (needing more and getting more of a hit from getting tired and low morale) and call it good. It doesn't take more energy for fast guys to run than it does for slow fat guys. That's just not reality and doesn't make sense any sense at all.
Pls, lets not kill the fun in building dots. I'm all for rewarding dots in some ways that have well rounded builds, but completely killing extreme builds would likely kill the game right along with them. For the majority on GLB, building dots is the most fun part of the game, and that's not nearly as fun if you have to make all the dots be well rounded or they're horrid. Sure, they should have disadvantages, such as losing more energy because of lower stamina, but a fast WR or DB using more energy than a slow one doesn't make any sense no matter how you look at it. Let's not kill the fun part of the game.
Originally posted by Catch22
Good point made by (someone else) - The problem with increasing the morale is the better built team will have a much better chance of running away with a game that might have otherwise been close.
I can see that point - morale having more of an impact will just hurt the lesser teams even more.
Originally posted by tester
I really think that Confidence and Stamina need (more) of a role in the actual gameplay...in other words they should figure more heavily into the equations.
I am not talking about Morale and Energy...those effects could use some tweaking as well perhaps, but my point is to have the attributes themselves directly effect what happens on a play a little more than they do now (especially confidence).
I have always thought that a low confidence player ought to have a fundamentally broader range of behavior, from "full potential" to "what the hell was that?"
Basically something like this:
[breakblock score]*[1-x] where x = a RNG factor whose size is bound or parameterized in some way by the ratio of a player's confidence to his level. (might be best to make this a log function of some sort rather than linear).
Essentially a very low confidence player would have a fairly frequent occurrence of being badly hamstrung by a poor random roll, resulting in very inconsistent play.
A very high confidence player would have a very low chance of having a bone-headed moment, resulting in very consistent play.
This methodology could easily apply to vision checks, blocking rolls, tackling rolls, pathing decisions, all sorts of things.
Originally posted by PP
I could buy the confidence part of that, so long as it doesn't completely kill dots with low confidence (not sure how bort would go about balancing it between the various lvls). I really, honestly, seriously think that simply tying stamina to in game energy, as it is now and increasing it's importance, as discussed before (60 stamina is the base line. Below it, assuming a good sub rate, you're feeling a significant skills hit by the half and in the 4th quarter....I've always assumed energy rebuilds to an extent at half time). That should be more then incentive enough to invest in stamina. Besides, it doesn't make sense for stamina itself to factor into any rolls, outside of a player having functionally lower skills because they are tired. It's not realistic that a fresh CB misses a tkl because he has low stamina and will get tired later.
I could see confidence playing a role in real FB activities. That makes sense. If you are afraid that the PB is going to run you over, you may miss more tkls. If you're afraid that the MLB is going to kill you, alligator arms may happen. The other team has a good play or you/your team has a bad play, your moral would suffer. That type of stuff I could buy.
IMO, it's VERY important for us to reward the players that have good conf & stam, but not kill those that don't have 60+. Many of us enjoy building well rounded dots. The fastest WR I've ever made has 84.56 natural speed. Taut pushes the hell out of confidence and stamina, compared to many other builders. I'm not sure we have an extreme builder in this group. However, many, many, many players really enjoy seeing how far they can push their dots. To them, that's most of the fun. I REALLY don't think we should destroy that....If we start doing things like making stamina a part of every roll or making it so you can't make wow plays unless you have great confidence, you start killing the fun.
As someone else once said, don't make fun things less fun, make more things fun. Reward those that have stamina and confidence, but don't kill those that don't just because "we" don't build like that.
Originally posted by tester
Stamina - Needs more importance. Perhaps a minimum loss per play even if the player doesn't do much. To help avoid TE's with 200+ pancakes a season playing with less than 40 Stamina. Also, Make it so the SA's/VA's that help regen stamina have more importance again.
Confidence - Should be a part of every roll. I believe it already is, but it should be a larger part of every roll than it is presently. Players in the WL with 40 confidence make me QQ because they are still effective and often more so because those SP's were able to be put somewhere else making the build more effective and 'distorted'.
Do a pass through of ALL the major rolls that can be made in game. Lets try to make it so that more attributes are involved and that the oppositional roll includes an equal number of attributes. Also, consider something where when the rolls are determined too great a disparity in the attributes has a deleterious effect to the overall success chances of the roll. So that distorted builds with wildly high numbers will not automatically be more successful in most every case.
Blocking - Make blocking more important in the blocking matchups. Strength right now is too determinative of success on blocking rolls. WR's with 60+ Strength (or more with the new Power WR archetypes) shouldn't be able to block as effectively as they can presently. Also, make Blocking more important to determining a pancake. EG, Str > Blocking = Target pushed back briefly but because its 'poor technique' there is little balance loss to the blockee. Blocking > Stre = Block Held and if there was enough of a result for a pushback, greater chance of pancake/loss of balance because the technique is good.
Originally posted by tester
Speaking in terms of vision for RBs, because it's really only used nowadays for fake ability. Not sure if this exists or is just hidden, but there should be some sort of vision check to 'break' their current path on run plays. RBs are still too robotic in their runs.
I'll use this play as an example: http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1027201&pbp_id=16127026
While that play is supposed to head outside, it would be nice if he could cut it inside (and regardless of power/elusive setting). A hefty vision check (something that ~68 vision on power running would still win) would be favorable. Obviously make it easier for an elusive runner to make the move, but a guy all the way towards power should be be 'exempt' from seeing a hole of that size.
Originally posted by Bort
Outside plays are most prone to that effect, since many use a scripted start.
I don't recall if that one got updated to use waypoints and hotspots, or uses a full scripted start. Those that use hotspots to direct the path have a lot more freedom.
As for energy and morale, I think it's time we make them mean more. I'll probably crank them up for some testing here in a bit.
Originally posted by tester
QB:
- Stamina needs to have an effect on throwing, too, if it doesn't already. The more you throw, the more your arm is going to feel it. Plus, scrambling around, taking sacks, etc. should take a bit out of you as well. Running all over the field (receivers, DBs, etc) needs to take a lot out of you, so you either need to rotate every play, or invest in some stamina. The more speed you have, the more energy you drain. Might help cut back on those 150 speed receivers.
- Agility needs some sort of use in a typical pocket passer, like setting your feet quickly for a quicker throw, avoiding pressure easier, etc.
- Confidence needs to be a bigger factor in general, or at least in game morale needs to be adjusted.
- Vision should help decide WHICH SA you want to use, if one at all
Originally posted by Bort
Vision is used in some SA's already, as to allowing them to work or not via a check. Would be interesting to apply a vision check to all skills...
Originally posted by tester
I'd like to see energy AND morale have more of an impact. If morale meant more than morale reducing SA's would mean a lot more. Rather than tweak the SA's, bring the sim to the SA's. Confidence would be real important overnight.
Originally posted by catch22
He just uploaded double effect on morale/energy. Testing right now (see requested test thread)
Originally posted by PP
Just leave stamina and confidence have the same impact that they do right now, but make it a bit more harsh (needing more and getting more of a hit from getting tired and low morale) and call it good. It doesn't take more energy for fast guys to run than it does for slow fat guys. That's just not reality and doesn't make sense any sense at all.
Pls, lets not kill the fun in building dots. I'm all for rewarding dots in some ways that have well rounded builds, but completely killing extreme builds would likely kill the game right along with them. For the majority on GLB, building dots is the most fun part of the game, and that's not nearly as fun if you have to make all the dots be well rounded or they're horrid. Sure, they should have disadvantages, such as losing more energy because of lower stamina, but a fast WR or DB using more energy than a slow one doesn't make any sense no matter how you look at it. Let's not kill the fun part of the game.
Originally posted by Catch22
Good point made by (someone else) - The problem with increasing the morale is the better built team will have a much better chance of running away with a game that might have otherwise been close.
I can see that point - morale having more of an impact will just hurt the lesser teams even more.
Originally posted by tester
I really think that Confidence and Stamina need (more) of a role in the actual gameplay...in other words they should figure more heavily into the equations.
I am not talking about Morale and Energy...those effects could use some tweaking as well perhaps, but my point is to have the attributes themselves directly effect what happens on a play a little more than they do now (especially confidence).
I have always thought that a low confidence player ought to have a fundamentally broader range of behavior, from "full potential" to "what the hell was that?"
Basically something like this:
[breakblock score]*[1-x] where x = a RNG factor whose size is bound or parameterized in some way by the ratio of a player's confidence to his level. (might be best to make this a log function of some sort rather than linear).
Essentially a very low confidence player would have a fairly frequent occurrence of being badly hamstrung by a poor random roll, resulting in very inconsistent play.
A very high confidence player would have a very low chance of having a bone-headed moment, resulting in very consistent play.
This methodology could easily apply to vision checks, blocking rolls, tackling rolls, pathing decisions, all sorts of things.
Originally posted by PP
I could buy the confidence part of that, so long as it doesn't completely kill dots with low confidence (not sure how bort would go about balancing it between the various lvls). I really, honestly, seriously think that simply tying stamina to in game energy, as it is now and increasing it's importance, as discussed before (60 stamina is the base line. Below it, assuming a good sub rate, you're feeling a significant skills hit by the half and in the 4th quarter....I've always assumed energy rebuilds to an extent at half time). That should be more then incentive enough to invest in stamina. Besides, it doesn't make sense for stamina itself to factor into any rolls, outside of a player having functionally lower skills because they are tired. It's not realistic that a fresh CB misses a tkl because he has low stamina and will get tired later.
I could see confidence playing a role in real FB activities. That makes sense. If you are afraid that the PB is going to run you over, you may miss more tkls. If you're afraid that the MLB is going to kill you, alligator arms may happen. The other team has a good play or you/your team has a bad play, your moral would suffer. That type of stuff I could buy.
IMO, it's VERY important for us to reward the players that have good conf & stam, but not kill those that don't have 60+. Many of us enjoy building well rounded dots. The fastest WR I've ever made has 84.56 natural speed. Taut pushes the hell out of confidence and stamina, compared to many other builders. I'm not sure we have an extreme builder in this group. However, many, many, many players really enjoy seeing how far they can push their dots. To them, that's most of the fun. I REALLY don't think we should destroy that....If we start doing things like making stamina a part of every roll or making it so you can't make wow plays unless you have great confidence, you start killing the fun.
As someone else once said, don't make fun things less fun, make more things fun. Reward those that have stamina and confidence, but don't kill those that don't just because "we" don't build like that.