nice job hazy!
Forum > Test Server Discussion > Test Server: Testing Pass Rush Effectiveness
joeflex73
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Originally posted by Lancer1997
Originally posted by PinTBC
Originally posted by GuieetarBen
probably not. he hates defense.
He doesn't hate defense.
Bort has done a decent job balancing the game. He does however have a tendency to patch things and not necessarily a long term patch.
What I fear is that his idea of balance is currently being skewed. I see a lot of 50 to 60 games this season.
PinTBC
Then why only target DE;s who were getting a lot of sacks instead of 1,000+ Pancake OT's?
Clearly there is a grudge against defense.
Because no one bitched. OC's, OT owners (mostly those with shit builds) and QB owners bitched to high heaven about needing a change. The only thing the trench fight needed was an increase to the importance of STR, on both sides of the fight. I have a lvl 45 OT with a decent build, not near as good as my 32's will be. He hasn't given up a sack since season 5. If you don't build an OT like a complete moron, it wasn't hard to control good and even elite pass rushers. I used to be able to hang my hat on that fact, back in season 6. Now, who gives a shit? If I had 40 AGi instead of 70 I'd probably still be able to boast that for the last 2 seasons
I still LOL at people talking about "DE's built like CB's". Sure, at lvl 21, speed rushers will have low STR. Julius Dee like DE's are extremely rare past lvl 30. Just because a guy is a speed rusher, doesn't mean he has no STR. Bull Rush has been broke, and if you want to get to the QB, you need quickness. It's called survival.
Originally posted by PinTBC
Originally posted by GuieetarBen
probably not. he hates defense.
He doesn't hate defense.
Bort has done a decent job balancing the game. He does however have a tendency to patch things and not necessarily a long term patch.
What I fear is that his idea of balance is currently being skewed. I see a lot of 50 to 60 games this season.
PinTBC
Then why only target DE;s who were getting a lot of sacks instead of 1,000+ Pancake OT's?
Clearly there is a grudge against defense.
Because no one bitched. OC's, OT owners (mostly those with shit builds) and QB owners bitched to high heaven about needing a change. The only thing the trench fight needed was an increase to the importance of STR, on both sides of the fight. I have a lvl 45 OT with a decent build, not near as good as my 32's will be. He hasn't given up a sack since season 5. If you don't build an OT like a complete moron, it wasn't hard to control good and even elite pass rushers. I used to be able to hang my hat on that fact, back in season 6. Now, who gives a shit? If I had 40 AGi instead of 70 I'd probably still be able to boast that for the last 2 seasons
I still LOL at people talking about "DE's built like CB's". Sure, at lvl 21, speed rushers will have low STR. Julius Dee like DE's are extremely rare past lvl 30. Just because a guy is a speed rusher, doesn't mean he has no STR. Bull Rush has been broke, and if you want to get to the QB, you need quickness. It's called survival.
Bukowski
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Hazy:
Could you elaborate on this a little bit:
Originally posted by thehazyone
Originally posted by Kevin Smith
Originally posted by sjmay
Considering it was tested, and tested, and determined the QB got rid of the ball way too quickly, what exactly did you want them to fix, based on that conclusion?
They did not "determine" that that´s the problem, they are hypothesising that it is. Big difference. Two seasons ago, the sim was changed to the detriment of DEs. Why not just try that old simcode now, the one that was supposed to be broken in DEs favour, and see if it still happens? What´s stopping us from doing that? Pride?
Actually, we did determine that's one of the main problems.
Could you elaborate on this a little bit:
Originally posted by thehazyone
Originally posted by Kevin Smith
Originally posted by sjmay
Considering it was tested, and tested, and determined the QB got rid of the ball way too quickly, what exactly did you want them to fix, based on that conclusion?
They did not "determine" that that´s the problem, they are hypothesising that it is. Big difference. Two seasons ago, the sim was changed to the detriment of DEs. Why not just try that old simcode now, the one that was supposed to be broken in DEs favour, and see if it still happens? What´s stopping us from doing that? Pride?
Actually, we did determine that's one of the main problems.
Originally posted by thehazyone
Originally posted by thehazyone
I just did an interesting two game experiment.
I reduced the QB's vision to 20 and removed their SA's and ran a test game. 12 sacks and 29 hurries.
http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/game.pl?game_id=862
I gave each of the QB's 7-7-7-7 in the first four pocket passing SA's but kept their vision at 20 and ran a test game.11 sacks and 25 hurries.
http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/game.pl?game_id=863
Just from those two games I think it's safe to say that vision and the QB getting rid of the ball quickly are a major reason for the lack of sacks. Is there a way we can adjust this slightly? Just doing this might solve all the problems and you won't have to do anything else. I'll be glad to test it if you make an adjustment.
Bort then doubled the vision check required by QB's on the test server to get rid of the ball and I ran a test sim (10 games with the same DE's and OT's I had used in the last test run with DE's having SA's) - sacks from DE's increased three fold. I haven't posted the test results yet because I'm waiting for Bort to view and respond.
Originally posted by thehazyone
I just did an interesting two game experiment.
I reduced the QB's vision to 20 and removed their SA's and ran a test game. 12 sacks and 29 hurries.
http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/game.pl?game_id=862
I gave each of the QB's 7-7-7-7 in the first four pocket passing SA's but kept their vision at 20 and ran a test game.11 sacks and 25 hurries.
http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/game.pl?game_id=863
Just from those two games I think it's safe to say that vision and the QB getting rid of the ball quickly are a major reason for the lack of sacks. Is there a way we can adjust this slightly? Just doing this might solve all the problems and you won't have to do anything else. I'll be glad to test it if you make an adjustment.
Bort then doubled the vision check required by QB's on the test server to get rid of the ball and I ran a test sim (10 games with the same DE's and OT's I had used in the last test run with DE's having SA's) - sacks from DE's increased three fold. I haven't posted the test results yet because I'm waiting for Bort to view and respond.
Last edited Apr 21, 2009 01:12:38
I'll check it out later tonight hazy; I saw that the games were run. I've just got lots of random little things distracting me today. I want to thank you publicly here for your efforts! 
Darkstrand
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you should do a
100/100/100 speed/agility/catching vs 70/70/70 speed/agility/vision
WR vs CB
and see that even with the vision check it's not comparable. THe above matchup is a touchdown on every pass. THe above matchup for DEs is not a sack on every pass.
100/100/100 speed/agility/catching vs 70/70/70 speed/agility/vision
WR vs CB
and see that even with the vision check it's not comparable. THe above matchup is a touchdown on every pass. THe above matchup for DEs is not a sack on every pass.
andrew7taylor
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Nice job running the test, but the matchup is not an OT vs a DE. It's a balanced TE vs a DE. How I know this? Because an OT should never need to have 70 speed to match up with the defense on passing downs. It should be something like:
OT:
90 strength
80 blocking
70 agility
60 speed
60 vision
60 confidence
DE:
90 agility
80 speed
70 strength
60 tackling
60 vision
60 confidence
Now the two should be the epítome of the pass blocking OT and the pass rushing DE, respectively. The DE should be able to get off the snap 80% of the time in time (means about the same time as the OT, a tenth(?) of a second later than the ball), should jump it 5-10% (means he would get off in the exact same time as the ball), and the rest he would get a slight delay.
OT:
90 strength
80 blocking
70 agility
60 speed
60 vision
60 confidence
DE:
90 agility
80 speed
70 strength
60 tackling
60 vision
60 confidence
Now the two should be the epítome of the pass blocking OT and the pass rushing DE, respectively. The DE should be able to get off the snap 80% of the time in time (means about the same time as the OT, a tenth(?) of a second later than the ball), should jump it 5-10% (means he would get off in the exact same time as the ball), and the rest he would get a slight delay.
bluemagus
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Originally posted by thehazyone
Bort then doubled the vision check required by QB's on the test server to get rid of the ball and I ran a test sim (10 games with the same DE's and OT's I had used in the last test run with DE's having SA's) - sacks from DE's increased three fold. I haven't posted the test results yet because I'm waiting for Bort to view and respond.
Hazy- Did how did the hurries increase in relation to the sacks? My guess is they did not go up equally, but I could be wrong.
Bort then doubled the vision check required by QB's on the test server to get rid of the ball and I ran a test sim (10 games with the same DE's and OT's I had used in the last test run with DE's having SA's) - sacks from DE's increased three fold. I haven't posted the test results yet because I'm waiting for Bort to view and respond.
Hazy- Did how did the hurries increase in relation to the sacks? My guess is they did not go up equally, but I could be wrong.
no hurries actually decreased because they were being converted into sacks more often.
Last edited Apr 21, 2009 07:49:03
Originally posted by thehazyone
Originally posted by Bort
6.64% huh? Interesting. That gives a very good idea of what to shoot for.
Great test with QB vision hazy. Maybe all I really need to do is increase the difficulty of the "throw the ball" vision check. There is one performed when a player is getting close to sack distance, to see if he can managed to get it away quickly. I have just updated that vision check on the test server to double the difficulty, so you can test against it if you like.
I went ahead and tested it, using the same guys with SA's (OL still had no SA's but I was using this for a comparison) at DE.
In the previous version before you updated the vision check, there was 10 sacks and 110 hurries in 3,747 plays over the 10 game run. In the version ran after you updated the vision check, there was 33 sacks and 77 hurries in 3,613 plays over the 10 game run. So if the QB threw the ball 500 times in a season (or 30 times a game), the average (meaning the composite of all these DE's) DE would get 4.6 sacks. Some positions were more effective than others, as is to be expected, and the speed DE was the best with 19 sacks and 15 hurries in 915 snaps or a avg of 10.38 over a 500 pass play season. The combo DE's were next best effective with 8 sacks and 27 hurries in 888 plays or an avg of 4.5 sacks over a 500 pass play season. This in my opinion is right around where an "average" DE should be.
Conclusion - the updated vision check helps, but I probably wouldn't quite do double, maybe a 60-70% increase. I'd also continue to look for ways to help strength based pass rushers as it's still obvious that speed DE's are the best way to go.
Originally posted by Bort
It confirms my suspicion, as well, that the D is actually getting hurries by getting through or around the line, but just not able to convert them to sacks very often because the QB is too omnicient.
I've adjusted the vision check line to halfway in between previous and the double test, which I guess equates to a 50% increase in difficulty from what it was before. Maybe running a few more games would get a good baseline there.
We have to keep in mind that the min-max type players out there will always tend to net about 15-25% more towards their stats than we do in testing, due to fine tuning their teams and playbooks, while the more casual style players will tend to get about 10-15% less. That's pretty much held true for me for all 9 seasons I've been running the game.
Originally posted by Bort
6.64% huh? Interesting. That gives a very good idea of what to shoot for.
Great test with QB vision hazy. Maybe all I really need to do is increase the difficulty of the "throw the ball" vision check. There is one performed when a player is getting close to sack distance, to see if he can managed to get it away quickly. I have just updated that vision check on the test server to double the difficulty, so you can test against it if you like.
I went ahead and tested it, using the same guys with SA's (OL still had no SA's but I was using this for a comparison) at DE.
In the previous version before you updated the vision check, there was 10 sacks and 110 hurries in 3,747 plays over the 10 game run. In the version ran after you updated the vision check, there was 33 sacks and 77 hurries in 3,613 plays over the 10 game run. So if the QB threw the ball 500 times in a season (or 30 times a game), the average (meaning the composite of all these DE's) DE would get 4.6 sacks. Some positions were more effective than others, as is to be expected, and the speed DE was the best with 19 sacks and 15 hurries in 915 snaps or a avg of 10.38 over a 500 pass play season. The combo DE's were next best effective with 8 sacks and 27 hurries in 888 plays or an avg of 4.5 sacks over a 500 pass play season. This in my opinion is right around where an "average" DE should be.
Conclusion - the updated vision check helps, but I probably wouldn't quite do double, maybe a 60-70% increase. I'd also continue to look for ways to help strength based pass rushers as it's still obvious that speed DE's are the best way to go.
Originally posted by Bort
It confirms my suspicion, as well, that the D is actually getting hurries by getting through or around the line, but just not able to convert them to sacks very often because the QB is too omnicient.
I've adjusted the vision check line to halfway in between previous and the double test, which I guess equates to a 50% increase in difficulty from what it was before. Maybe running a few more games would get a good baseline there.
We have to keep in mind that the min-max type players out there will always tend to net about 15-25% more towards their stats than we do in testing, due to fine tuning their teams and playbooks, while the more casual style players will tend to get about 10-15% less. That's pretty much held true for me for all 9 seasons I've been running the game.
Last edited Apr 21, 2009 07:51:15
tsherr
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What about DEs breaking through for TFLs? It's great that we are fixing the pass rush issue, but it appears that we are going down the "fix the pass rush by changing the QB" route, rather than "fix the engage/avoid engagement - block/shed block" route. I think that the the second route needs to be done as well - otherwise you end up we DEs being purely passing down players.
T
T
Motiak
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Not to be a downer, but I don't believe this is going to change much. Sure, the DEs beat an OT with 60 agi/40 spd, but that's a pretty decent DE going up against an OT that is mediocre at best. Just watching the replays, I watch the way the OTs move and that isn't ever how OTs I play against move unless they're CPU. OTs are much faster, much more responsive and much harder to beat in competitive games.
joeflex73
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Most decent OT's by 30 have 60 AGI/40 SPD. I feel this is only taking care of part of the problem. It'd be like telling a cancer patient who has a cold that his cold is cured, so he's fine now.
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