Warrior General Games

Originally posted by griffin8r
Prior post was me fishing for some vague idea as to what the "diminishing returns" on SAs really were. Obviously, Catch gave us a clue there, but I'm pressing for a bit more info. Would definitely be helpful to build planning in the future.

I knew where you were going. sounds like above 15 doesn't add any more.

Originally posted by cosmoxl
Originally posted by griffin8r

Prior post was me fishing for some vague idea as to what the "diminishing returns" on SAs really were. Obviously, Catch gave us a clue there, but I'm pressing for a bit more info. Would definitely be helpful to build planning in the future.

I knew where you were going. sounds like above 15 doesn't add any more.

Yea, or maybe works against it for some reason

I think a new tactic for zone specialists is in order. It would be great to have some sort of slider that forces a defender to stay at home in his zone or freelance. Maybe this would improve zone defenses in general and make the need for all the bonuses moot.

My point is how a TE can run through a couple zones and take everybody with him and the HB can come in behind and make the catch while the TE takes out a couple players. They seem to need any bonus they can get just to get back to the play which took place in their original zone. Maybe if they hovered in their zone until the ball is thrown then they can simply play the ball?

Originally posted by AngryDragon
I think a new tactic for zone specialists is in order. It would be great to have some sort of slider that forces a defender to stay at home in his zone or freelance. Maybe this would improve zone defenses in general and make the need for all the bonuses moot.

My point is how a TE can run through a couple zones and take everybody with him and the HB can come in behind and make the catch while the TE takes out a couple players. They seem to need any bonus they can get just to get back to the play which took place in their original zone. Maybe if they hovered in their zone until the ball is thrown then they can simply play the ball?

It has to be based on a vision check, and have to have another defender to turn the receiver over to. Plus offense needs to be able to have their guys find the seams just like real football, then another vision check.

Originally posted by cosmoxl
I knew where you were going. sounds like above 15 doesn't add any more.

Which is why I'd like confirm.

Even if that is true, the cover corner can get to 15 without spending a single SP, via AE and, if necessary, CE. Meanwhile, ZS cannot gain benefit from CE, nor can it gain benefit from AE, therefore it must be invested in via SP, and cannot be advanced beyond 10.

This is p much broken in favor of the man cover player, IMO.

As I said before, I get why JH is being secluded, because it is broken as it sits, just as broken as SDC, if not more so. ZS, OTOH, is pretty sucky as it sits (yes, Catch, I heard you when you said you were lobbying to have it un-nerfed, and I hope Bort listens to that lobbying)

I recall a thread in which I participated, that discussed the "most potent" SAs out there, and I (among others) listed SDC and Protect as the singular most powerful SAs in the game, because of their latent ability to transform a mediocre dot into an elite one. There is not a single other SA out there that gives bonuses to multiple core attributes under such a broad set of circumstances.

Originally posted by AngryDragon
I think a new tactic for zone specialists is in order. It would be great to have some sort of slider that forces a defender to stay at home in his zone or freelance. Maybe this would improve zone defenses in general and make the need for all the bonuses moot.

My point is how a TE can run through a couple zones and take everybody with him and the HB can come in behind and make the catch while the TE takes out a couple players. They seem to need any bonus they can get just to get back to the play which took place in their original zone. Maybe if they hovered in their zone until the ball is thrown then they can simply play the ball?

That's kinda how zones work in RL, AD.

Would I be in favor of a slider? HELL NO. We've seen how well sliders have worked to date. The last thing this issue needs is a slider to be attached to it, so everyone can yell "fix your tactics", a la QB's.

just based on my discussions with Bort when we were talking about the bonus to SA's for the new archetypes (it's fairly public knowledge AFAIK) but there is little value in putting points into an SA after a certain point. As in no value. Not going to say the exact number since I don't know what it is exactly and that's not something Bort would ever reveal anyway but I'm confident in the above statement.

Originally posted by AngryDragon
I think a new tactic for zone specialists is in order. It would be great to have some sort of slider that forces a defender to stay at home in his zone or freelance. Maybe this would improve zone defenses in general and make the need for all the bonuses moot.

My point is how a TE can run through a couple zones and take everybody with him and the HB can come in behind and make the catch while the TE takes out a couple players. They seem to need any bonus they can get just to get back to the play which took place in their original zone. Maybe if they hovered in their zone until the ball is thrown then they can simply play the ball?

I was also thinking about this and thinking it would be awesome to have a tactic that told a player to stay under or over the top while inside of a zone. For example maybe you want your defenders to always play under in underneath zones and always play over the top in deep zones. That way they never let a receiver get behind them deep. Of course they will have to be fast enough to prevent this. lol

It just seems like the zones in general are way too generic this season. Almost to the point that players played like retards this season. I used to love zone but found myself using it less and less this season.

Originally posted by Catch22
just based on my discussions with Bort when we were talking about the bonus to SA's for the new archetypes (it's fairly public knowledge AFAIK) but there is little value in putting points into an SA after a certain point. As in no value. Not going to say the exact number since I don't know what it is exactly and that's not something Bort would ever reveal anyway but I'm confident in the above statement.

See, that's part of the problem. Something as significant as the zero-point for SAs is something that does need to be shared with the community, in large part because:

1) Most SA's don't work very well until your build is well-developed.

2) People are paying money to develop their dots.

3) Not revealing an end-point where investing further into a given aspect of a build gives no additional value is tantamount to fraud, pursuant to #1 and #2.

Originally posted by AngryDragon
It just seems like the zones in general are way too generic this season. Almost to the point that players played like retards this season. I used to love zone but found myself using it less and less this season.

Emphasis mine, obviously.

Compared to man coverage, this is absolutely correct.

Originally posted by Catch22
just based on my discussions with Bort when we were talking about the bonus to SA's for the new archetypes (it's fairly public knowledge AFAIK) but there is little value in putting points into an SA after a certain point. As in no value. Not going to say the exact number since I don't know what it is exactly and that's not something Bort would ever reveal anyway but I'm confident in the above statement.

Nah, there's no zero point. Every point added will at least make it marginally better. There just reaches a point where adding to an SA above 10 just doesn't make much of a difference. The opportunity cost just isn't worth it even past 12-13 IMO. Getting something to 20 or 25 is just silly.

Originally posted by Bort
Nah, there's no zero point. Every point added will at least make it marginally better. There just reaches a point where adding to an SA above 10 just doesn't make much of a difference. The opportunity cost just isn't worth it even past 12-13 IMO. Getting something to 20 or 25 is just silly.

I guess that hinges on what you define as opportunity cost.

3 pieces of SDC AE = 0 opportunity cost. 1 piece of CE with coverage (an additional +1) = 0 opportunity cost.

Granted, if you were looking at it from a pure SP investment standpoint, then I could see what you're saying, but since we cannot spend more than 30 SP (or 55, in the case of SDC) on a given SA, there's no really subtle way to figure out that 12 in a given SA rocks, but 13 isn't any better than 12, especially with the anecdotal evidence available that suggests certain SAs don't even really start functioning well until they are over 10.

Originally posted by griffin8r
certain SAs don't even really start functioning well until they are over 10.

I have to LOL at that one, tbh. The falloff on skills over 10 is fast enough that that assumption makes no sense whatsoever. It's like saying strength works way better when you take it from 50 to 50.2.

Anyway, I'm referring to the fact that you could increase other things instead of your SA at 20. I'd rather have 2 SA's at 10 than 1 at 20. By far.

Originally posted by Bort
I have to LOL at that one, tbh. The falloff on skills over 10 is fast enough that that assumption makes no sense whatsoever. It's like saying strength works way better when you take it from 50 to 50.2.

Anyway, I'm referring to the fact that you could increase other things instead of your SA at 20. I'd rather have 2 SA's at 10 than 1 at 20. By far.

If, by being the butt of your private joke, I get more info, I'll take the beating, tbh.

Let's be honest here, this is really the first time you've given anything remotely resembling a clue as to how fast the "diminishing returns" happen. If you're LOL'ing, it's because the GLB populace has been speculating and groping blindly.

Originally posted by Bort
I have to LOL at that one, tbh. The falloff on skills over 10 is fast enough that that assumption makes no sense whatsoever. It's like saying strength works way better when you take it from 50 to 50.2.

Anyway, I'm referring to the fact that you could increase other things instead of your SA at 20. I'd rather have 2 SA's at 10 than 1 at 20. By far.

The issue is those other things usually help other aspects of the build. If you want to be worth anything in GLB you need to sellout from day 1 to essentially overbuild to get any results.