Warrior General Games

Originally posted by coach
The "range" is determined by the HB's vision, correct?

So a HB with higher vision is more likely to waste his fake on a player who is too far away to make the play anyway, right?


No, it's based on the defender's tackle ability, actually. It's more like the QB vision checks, where you get a vision check for each guy who's coming into tackle range, to see if you can "see" him.

Originally posted by j10er
Originally posted by Bort

If the carrier sees the defender ready to tackle, he gets to try and fake him.

So, with the new system, does that mean there are more vision checks involved?

No, same as before.

Originally posted by Bort
Originally posted by PackMan97

Originally posted by wombat killer


Why do you say "because the biggest threat won't get faked"?

I think Bort meant "biggest threat" as in the guy with the best build. I imagine there is some code that a ball carrier uses to rank the threats to run away from. I have two guys in front of me, which one do I want to cut toward? The guy that is the worst tackler/player.

Probably something like the pass coverage code, where the QB tries to avoid the guys that are covered by the best CBs.

Yeah, it's likely that the "biggest threat" is going to be the guy least likely to get faked out. You might as well fake out some other guys if you can, and try to get away from him instead, no?

No. Faking out someone else 8 yards down the field and getting tackled by the 'biggest threat' one yard in front of you doesn't help at all.

Originally posted by AngryDragon
I think the problem is there is no direct counter to the VA and SA combos that made the HBs so dominant this season. Super vision is the only thing that came to mind but that was balanced with the juke and fake SAs before the VAs enhanced the Jukes.

The avoid fake advanced equipment also helps, but very few defenders want to "waste" their equipment spot and bonus tokens there. Pretty much every decent elusive back uses fake equipment... would make sense that defenders would counter with equipment of their own. Or they could just wait for the nerf. Second option wins.

Originally posted by coach
Originally posted by AngryDragon

I think the problem is there is no direct counter to the VA and SA combos that made the HBs so dominant this season. Super vision is the only thing that came to mind but that was balanced with the juke and fake SAs before the VAs enhanced the Jukes.

The avoid fake advanced equipment also helps, but very few defenders want to "waste" their equipment spot and bonus tokens there. Pretty much every decent elusive back uses fake equipment... would make sense that defenders would counter with equipment of their own. Or they could just wait for the nerf. Second option wins.

True, but 2 + fake chance VAs, AND equipment does not balance out with avoid fake equipment. That's why we need the avoid fake VA.

Originally posted by PackMan97
Originally posted by wombat killer

I meant closest to making the tackle. Regardless of build. I think it would be pretty crazy to think the HB is going to instantly evaluate who is trying to tackle him.

Closest in distance or ability? (please ignore the mixed era here) Let's say you are LaDainian Tomlinson, and you are breaking away on a run. You have Deon Sanders right in front of you just a few steps away and Troy Polamalu closing on an angle. Who are you going to worry about? The guy that has NEVER trained his tackling (Deon), or the beast that is about to devour you (Troy). Trust me, if you are LT, you pretty much ignore Deon and focus on avoiding Troy.

Why not? That's what the best HB's in real life do. They know who to try and plow, who to spin, who to head fake and juke. Who to try and beat to the left, to the right, etc. While much of it is instinct, all of that film watching is done for a reason...to learn every guy that you will face on the field.

Powerback vs Elusive back. If you're balanced or power, you run the CB over and fake the saftey.

Elusive backs should fake the CB, then try to hit the outside and sprint, or fake the CB then try to fake the saftey.

Originally posted by Bort
Originally posted by coach

The "range" is determined by the HB's vision, correct?

So a HB with higher vision is more likely to waste his fake on a player who is too far away to make the play anyway, right?


No, it's based on the defender's tackle ability, actually. It's more like the QB vision checks, where you get a vision check for each guy who's coming into tackle range, to see if you can "see" him.

What? So if a guy is a good enough tackler, he's invisible? Please tell me I'm reading that wrong...

Originally posted by Bort
Originally posted by j10er

Originally posted by Bort


If the carrier sees the defender ready to tackle, he gets to try and fake him.

So, with the new system, does that mean there are more vision checks involved?

No, same as before.

Bad phrasing on my part. I didn't mean that the mechanics changed.

RB sees Tackler A and performs a successful juke.

In the old system, Tackler A, B, C and D fell for the juke. But now, only Tackler A does.

Which means the RB now has to perform a successful vision check on Tackler B in order to see him. And, if successful, then C. Etc., etc.

So, it's not more intentional vision checks, but, because only one defender can get faked out per tick, more vision checks are ultimately made.

Sound right?

I still think HBs worked pretty good after the change. I guess not all of them but I saw more spin moves and actual broken tackles from HBs that would have otherwise been untouched on their way to the endzone prior to the change.

Lucky for me I do not own a HB but my team has 3.

Originally posted by Bort
Originally posted by Bukowski

It used to be, when the fake SA activates, the defender that was the highest threat would normally be faked.

LOL, you just pulled that out of your ass, because it ain't true. Usually it was just the guys who failed their rolls most miserably. It's the same math & progression as it's always been now. Fakes happen when a defender is getting in position to try and make a tackle, and its in a fairly random order as to who gets picked first amongst those in range, based on which defender is acting first against the carrier. If the carrier sees the defender ready to tackle, he gets to try and fake him. If the tackler is already faked out, he can't get stack-faked, so we can go on to the next guy.

Therefore, lets say there are 3 guys trying to make the tackle.

Tick 1, you fake guy B.
Tick 2, you fail all your rolls and don't fake anybody. Guy B is still faked.
Tick 3, you can't fake guy B because he's already faked out, so you fake guy A.
Tick 4, guy B and A are already faked out, still shrunken, so you fake guy C.

Now, with this method, you do end up with fewer chances to fake people, because you have to wait until the next tick to try for the next guy when you succeed, but that's what I wanted - focus on taking out one tackler at a time.

Bort, I am not seeing HB's move to guy A if guy B was faked on tick 2, 3, 4, etc...
Did you change the values of the rolls required to carryout a fake element? Or did you change the bonus from any of the SA's?

Originally posted by Adderfist
Originally posted by Bort

Originally posted by PackMan97


Originally posted by wombat killer



Why do you say "because the biggest threat won't get faked"?

I think Bort meant "biggest threat" as in the guy with the best build. I imagine there is some code that a ball carrier uses to rank the threats to run away from. I have two guys in front of me, which one do I want to cut toward? The guy that is the worst tackler/player.

Probably something like the pass coverage code, where the QB tries to avoid the guys that are covered by the best CBs.

Yeah, it's likely that the "biggest threat" is going to be the guy least likely to get faked out. You might as well fake out some other guys if you can, and try to get away from him instead, no?

No. Faking out someone else 8 yards down the field and getting tackled by the 'biggest threat' one yard in front of you doesn't help at all.

That situation is pretty unlikely, since the biggest threat guy is more in a position to tackle you and acting sooner. It's more likely you tried to fake the biggest threat and failed (like I'm saying), while the guy 8 yards down field fell for it.

The question isn't "should I fake the guy 8 yards away vs the guy 1 yard away." It's: "There are 2 guys 3 yards away. Which one do I try to fake out first?"

I think the point is, that guys with Elusive backs (and owners dependent on them) want a constant stream of juking the guy nearest the HB, thus making it so NO ONE can ever tackle them.

The rest of us want something a bit closer to reality.

Originally posted by PackMan97
I think it is important to note that this change is only one SUCCESSFUL fake per tick, not one fake chance per tick.

I don't understand. Expand on that bro.

Originally posted by TyrannyVaunt

Bort, I am not seeing HB's move to guy A if guy B was faked on tick 2, 3, 4, etc...
Did you change the values of the rolls required to carryout a fake element? Or did you change the bonus from any of the SA's?

Nope.

Originally posted by Bort
Originally posted by TyrannyVaunt


Bort, I am not seeing HB's move to guy A if guy B was faked on tick 2, 3, 4, etc...
Did you change the values of the rolls required to carryout a fake element? Or did you change the bonus from any of the SA's?

Nope.

So, to clarify; you changed nothing other than the ability to fake out more than one defender per tick?