Warrior General Games

Originally posted by PP
1VBChaos & superpunk, pls, trust me when I say that I completely understand your frustrations. After all, we're up to 8 pages of resonable discussion and not a single answer. Personally, I don't blame the mods on this one (don't think either of you are). They are every bit as in the dark on this as we are. Bort is the only person that can answer these ?s and, even as I was writing the OP, I expected him to ignore them. However, I do think they deserve answers and don't want to give him an already built excuse for not answering because the thread has been locked (due to swearing, flaming, or God only knows what). If he chooses to duck the ?s, I don't want to give him a builtin excuse for doing so.

I think we should at least see the new stuff before making a judgment on them. We really have no idea what is in the store at the moment.

Originally posted by panther17
Originally posted by PP

1VBChaos & superpunk, pls, trust me when I say that I completely understand your frustrations. After all, we're up to 8 pages of resonable discussion and not a single answer. Personally, I don't blame the mods on this one (don't think either of you are). They are every bit as in the dark on this as we are. Bort is the only person that can answer these ?s and, even as I was writing the OP, I expected him to ignore them. However, I do think they deserve answers and don't want to give him an already built excuse for not answering because the thread has been locked (due to swearing, flaming, or God only knows what). If he chooses to duck the ?s, I don't want to give him a builtin excuse for doing so.

I think we should at least see the new stuff before making a judgment on them. We really have no idea what is in the store at the moment.

I can safely say it'll be unbalanced without seeing it.

It'll either be so weak no one wants it, or so overpowered everyone will want it. This is typical of MMOs. Everyone wants the best stuff. When the 'best stuff' changes, everyone gets the new best stuff, costs or efforts irrelevant.

Adding advanced gear won't make anyone more unique or different. It'll simply change what the min-maxers go for. A temporary patch on a permanent problem MMORPG's have had for decades

Originally posted by purehatred


Quick question: let's say Bort's plan is to roll out the full training options on Day -4 and then give everyone 10 TP to play with.

Would that b a workable solution for you? Do you think the pre-season is long enough to get a decent handle on things?




I think that's plenty of time to figure out how the new training system works. Hell, I think I've got that part close enough to down already, but I don't see how it will answer my original ? about the comparitive value of new vrs old EQ. I mean, is having 2 in Hands of Fly Paper going to be better than having 5 EQ based skill points in catching?

Don't get me wrong. I'm not looking for a step by step guide or for Bort to tell us exactly what to do. However, I've got a team full of lvl 29-31 players right now, and they'll all hit 32 by the 1st reg season game. Some way, shape or form, I need to figure out if I dump the 36 mil or so into the old EQ upgrades. Right now, I don't have any real clue whether it's worth it or not (and no one else in this game besides Bort). All I'm looking for is some solid data to analyze and base some tough decisions on...I don't think I (or anyone else) should have to waste a season or two (it will take at least that long with the current lvl of info and experimenting by pitting regular EQ against the new stuff), our players developement and a ton of cyber cash on just gathering enough info to analyze. Doing so would suck for me, but would absolutely cripple the have nots.

Originally posted by PP

I think that's plenty of time to figure out how the new training system works. Hell, I think I've got that part close enough to down already, but I don't see how it will answer my original ? about the comparitive value of new vrs old EQ. I mean, is having 2 in Hands of Fly Paper going to be better than having 5 EQ based skill points in catching?


I honestly think that's going to be a decision best made on a player by player basis and will be largely dependant on how your team uses you.

New wave of Specialization, etc..

I said it earlier: for me personally the equipment would have to be REALLY magical for me to give up +5 in speed.

I'd almost rather they just add an ability to upgrade CE.

Originally posted by purehatred
Originally posted by PP


I think that's plenty of time to figure out how the new training system works. Hell, I think I've got that part close enough to down already, but I don't see how it will answer my original ? about the comparitive value of new vrs old EQ. I mean, is having 2 in Hands of Fly Paper going to be better than having 5 EQ based skill points in catching?


I honestly think that's going to be a decision best made on a player by player basis and will be largely dependant on how your team uses you.

New wave of Specialization, etc..

I said it earlier: for me personally the equipment would have to be REALLY magical for me to give up +5 in speed.

I'd almost rather they just add an ability to upgrade CE.


same

Originally posted by panther17


I think we should at least see the new stuff before making a judgment on them. We really have no idea what is in the store at the moment.

Agreed. I'm not damning the new system (damning that priorities are completely screwed, IMO, but not the new system itself). What I'm damning is the lack of any info to base tough decisions on. I'm growing weary of hurting my players, in an effort to find the best builds, only to find them and then have them thrown into the manure pile because they aren't cookie cutter enough and need to be changed. So, I have to start all over again. At these lvls, if you screw up (your own fault or screwed by nerfing your stars) it takes a long time to get back. I've had to work on fixing my CBs for a full season and they're still most likely 4-5 lvls from being decent again...If I make the wrong decision on hwat to do with lvl 32 bonuses and EQ, I don't know if I'll ever really be able to recover from that. I welcome that risk, ASSUMING I have something, hell, anything to base that decision on. Right now, no one does. That's what I want some answers/data on...And I DON'T think that's unreasonable in the least little bit.

I don't think the OP is questioning the change in of itself; he is simply saying that he spent real money to buy CE in the past and now it is on the verge, perhaps (because there is no real information about what the new equipment does in comparison) of becoming outdated.

He is making a reasonable request: people who invested money and time to help the game grow should be given 100% payback on CE so that they can buy new equipment. Instead of keeping both types of equipment if you want to go to a new system go to it completely and then give players who invested in the old a 100% FP and game money exchange so that they can update.

Is that really asking too much? Isn't that a good way to show that you appreciate players who have made the game successful and invested in it?

Originally posted by FBGProfessor

Is that really asking too much? Isn't that a good way to show that you appreciate players who have made the game successful and invested in it?

Nah..totally reasonable. But to be fair, I do believe Bort has mentioned the possibility of giving a full refund on all the existing equipment...maybe it will extend to CE as well?

Some sort of amnesty period for getting used to the new equip?

Originally posted by PP
I know this is a ? that only Bort can answer (and it'd be damn nice if he did), but agents with older players really need to know. We've be used as lab rats enough and shouldn't have to screw our players even more by having to figure this one out.

Here's the rub. We all have a shit ton invested in the old EQ. I read talk about the possibility of getting a 100% cash payback on it, and that would be sort of nice I guess, but the $ is the least of it. By far the biggie is the 16-20 skill points it's worth.

Unless I'm missing something big, the choice is to scrap that and start over or keep pouring $ into it as the players hit 32 & 40. The question that we can't answer (and only Bort currently can) is if bending over and getting hosed out of the EQ points we already have is the right or wrong way. Since many of us are about to hit lvl 24 or 32, that really needs to be answered.

Side note, I'm FAR from thrilled that so much was put into this new training system, at the cost of ignoring HUGE flaws (leagues overflowing with gutted teams, the O AI being woefully lacking, no forum search option, pitful documentation (having to ask this ? is a perfect example...May have been answered somewhere or not, short of searching every thread, no way of knowing) and so on. Still, I think it could be decent (once more training combos are added), but it massively hoses older players. We shouldn't have to start over with the new EQ. We have already paid the dues and should be able to trade our existing EQ for new EQ that has the same # of skill point boosts as our current sets have. We earned it by building this game and our players and shouldn't be this drastically nerfed for having already invested so heavily in this game. Unless I'm missing something (and, if so, sorry for the rant), we're really getting kicked in the nuts for being here since the start.

Alright, time for the brown noses and new players to bash away now...I can live with that, so long as Bort gives a decent answer to whether the smart move is to scrap and start over or stick with the old (because the new isn't much better)

There is a part of this that really interested me.

Why was so much time and effort put in to a new training system when the older ideas that seemed simple were ignored:

Forum searches
PM to entire teams
Full user guide
Offensive AI upgrade to formations and personnel

Weren't these some of the things that a vast majority of users have asked for? When will these be addressed? I think the first two have been asked umpteen times, and yet no progress is being made there.

Originally posted by hud
Nice PP... so something that works the old way is still an option (which older players have always and still have as an advantage over the newer players) and something "better" comes out for everyone to use equally, we should complain?

fail

it's like the US politicians saying illegal immigrants won't be able to "cut to the front of the line" of people trying to enter the US legally and then granting the illegals amnesty

Originally posted by purehatred



I honestly think that's going to be a decision best made on a player by player basis and will be largely dependant on how your team uses you.

New wave of Specialization, etc..

I said it earlier: for me personally the equipment would have to be REALLY magical for me to give up +5 in speed.

I'd almost rather they just add an ability to upgrade CE.


I tend to agree, but it's all based on a flat out guess, and I don't like basing important (important as far as this game goes, anyway) decisions on pure guess work.

I don't think the training updates should imply that Bort isn't working on/concerned with other issues, not in the least.

Gutting became a huge problem (the state it is now) after these changes were well in the works, I'd rather see the training/player improvements followed through on instead of constantly switching midstream and ending up with a bunch of half-assed changes/additions.

Originally posted by Asheme
I don't think the training updates should imply that Bort isn't working on/concerned with other issues, not in the least.

Gutting became a huge problem (the state it is now) after these changes were well in the works, I'd rather see the training/player improvements followed through on instead of constantly switching midstream and ending up with a bunch of half-assed changes/additions.

Yeah, i think that a lot of people are forgetting that users have been begging to have more options for their players since Season 1..I mean drifter's "player personality" idea is older than some of the actual leagues.

Originally posted by PP
I tend to agree, but it's all based on a flat out guess, and I don't like basing important (important as far as this game goes, anyway) decisions on pure guess work.


I agree...I guess I'm just willling to be more patient since we do have a pre-season still.

If nothing happens during the pre-season as far as a real preview, I'll probably be irritated too.

Originally posted by Asheme
I don't think the training updates should imply that Bort isn't working on/concerned with other issues, not in the least.

Gutting became a huge problem (the state it is now) after these changes were well in the works, I'd rather see the training/player improvements followed through on instead of constantly switching midstream and ending up with a bunch of half-assed changes/additions.

I don't mean to derail this from the original ?, but, come one, Asheme, you know better than this. Taking one day and going through the league, moving teams up or down, wouldn't have left the new training system in a state of half-assedness. Taking part of a day (in the how many seasons now?) to come up with a PM team option wouldn't have resulted in some massive snowball affect. Somewhere, I read Bort saying that this new training system was relatively easy to implement (If I recall, it was to counter someone's arguement that he should have been working on other things).

Sure, expanding the O AI is a huge time consumer, as would documenting things be, but a lot of this stuff would take less time than I've put into this apparently worthless thread.